Description	Palatka City Commission 10-27-05 6:00 pm
Date	10/27/2005	Location	Palatka City Commission
Time	Speaker/Item	Note
6:09:06 PM	PRESENT Also Present	Mayor Karl N. Flagg; Commissioners Mary Lawson Brown, James Norwood, Jr., and George E. Sanders. City Manager Allen R. Bush, City Attorney Donald E. Holmes, City Clerk Betsy Jordan Driggers, Assistant City Clerk Karen M. Venables, Finance Director Ruby Williams, Planning Director Adam Mengel, Code Enforcement Officer Jeanne Chandler, Police Chief Gary Getchell, Assistant Police Chief James Griffith, Police Commander Reno Fells, Parks Supt. Jeff Norton, Main Street Manager Cathy Butler
6:11:26 PM	Call To Order	Girl Scout Mayor Emily Piscitello.
6:11:34 PM	INVOCATION PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE	The Reverend Lester Jenkins, Associate Pastor, Peniel Baptist Church Tracey Piscitello, Girl Scout Troop Leader
6:11:51 PM	Roll Call	Mayor Emily Piscitello, Vice Mayor Sara Austin; Commissioners Kayleigh Sekel, Cynthia Murff and Paige Piscitello
6:12:04 PM	PROCLAMATION	Girl Scouts of America Day - GS Mayor Piscitello, assisted by GS Vice Mayor Sara Austin, read a proclamation honoring all the local Girl Scouts of America troops and volunteer leaders and recognizing Girl Scouting's 93rd Birthday on October 31, 2005. It was presented to Girl Scout troop leader Tracey Piscitello and other troop leaders present.
6:14:38 PM		Tracey Piscitello, Troop Leader thanked the City of Palatka for inviting them and helps them learn about what the City does.
6:14:58 PM	SPECIAL BUSINESS	It was moved by GS Vice Mayor Austin, seconded by GS Commissioner Piscitello to build orphanage in the City of Palatka for the less fortunate children. There being no further discussion, the motion passed unopposed.
6:16:00 PM		GS Mayor Emily Piscitello announced that this concludes the Special Agenda. She returned the gavel to Mayor Karl Flagg.
6:17:01 PM	CALL TO ORDER	Mayor Flagg called the regular October 27, 2005 City Commission meeting to order.
6:17:28 PM	Roll Call	Mayor Karl N. Flagg; Commissioners Mary Lawson Brown, James Norwood, Jr., and George E. Sanders
6:17:47 PM	Absent	Commissioner Hernan Azula
6:18:02 PM	APPROVAL OF MINUTES -	10-13-05 - Commissioner Brown moved to approve the minutes as read; Commissioner Norwood seconded the motion, which passed unopposed.
6:18:27 PM	Public Recognition
6:18:35 PM		PROCLAMATION - City Government Week - Mayor Flagg read and presented to City Manager Allen R. Bush a proclamation designating the week of October 23 - 29, 2005 as Florida City Government Week.
6:20:30 PM		PROCLAMATION - Pastoral Care Week - Mayor Flagg read and presented a proclamation designating the week of October 23 - 29, 2005 as Pastoral Care Week. Reverend Loretta Bolling, Chaplin Coordinator of Putnam Community Medical Center was present to accept.
6:22:40 PM		PROCLAMATION - Premature Birth Awareness Days - Mayor Flagg read presented a proclamation designating November 11 - 13, 2005 as Premature Birth Awareness Days. March of Dimes Local Chairperson, Emma Lou Morris was present to accept.
6:24:33 PM		DISTINGUISHED PUBLIC SERVICE AWARD - Mayor Flagg read and presented Ms. Christy Sheffield Sanford a certificate of appreciation for her 2 years of service as a member of the Palatka Tree Committee.
6:25:29 PM		DISTINGUISHED PUBLIC SERVICE AWARD - Mayor Flagg read and presented Mr. Bob Beacham a certificate of reappointment and a certificate of appreciation for his many years of service as a member of the Palatka Code Enforcement Board.
6:26:01 PM		Mayor Flagg recognized those who were not present.
6:26:13 PM		DISTINGUISHED PUBLIC SERVICE AWARD - Mayor Flagg read a certificate of appreciation for Mr. Robert Clark for his 13 years of service as a member of the Palatka Tree Committee.
6:27:14 PM		DISTINGUISHED PUBLIC SERVICE AWARD - Mayor Flagg read a certificate of appreciation for Michael Anderson for his 2 years of service as a member of the Palatka General Employees' Pension Board.
6:27:46 PM	Governor Jeb Bush's Point Of Light Award	Mayor Flagg introduced State Representative Joe Pickins and Harriett Holliday
6:29:01 PM		Representative Pickins said it was very fitting that they were there tonight when the City was recognizing people for outstanding commitment and service to the City of Palatka because it is exactly what the Point of Light Award is about. He said on the Governor's web site is explains that the Governor's Points of Light Program was established in February 2000 and the Governor's Points of Light Award program recognizes those Florida residents and organizations that demonstrate exemplary volunteer services to their community. Recipients have ranged in age from 6 years to 101 years old and have included individuals, groups, nonprofit organizations, corporations and businesses. The common thread is their love of their community and their belief that through volunteering they can make a positive impact. Their commitment is what Governor Bush wants to recognize through the Points of Light Award program. Royal Caribbean and Celebrity Cruises Lines sponsor it. Rep. Pickins asked Mayor Flagg to come forward to accept the award on behalf of Governor Bush. Rep. Pickins presented two letters to Mayor Flagg, one from the Governor recognizing the Mayor for his service to the community and the recipient of the Governor's Points of Light Award and also a letter of recognition from Royal Caribbean International. Rep. Pickins read and presented Mayor Flagg with the Governor's Points of Light Award. Rep. Pickins said in his view Mayor Flagg embodies everything that is good about our City of Palatka, faith, family, community spirit and a willingness to roll up his sleeves and do whatever is necessary to improve the quality of life for the citizens he serves as Mayor.
6:31:27 PM		Harriett Holliday said she is the person who submitted the Mayors name for the award. Ms. Said the Governor extends an invitation for him to attend a reception in the fall at the Governor's Mansion for all honorees of the award.
6:32:06 PM		Mayor Flagg thanked everyone and his family who were present.
6:32:34 PM	CERTIFICATE OF ACHIEVEMENT FOR EXCELLENCE IN FINANCIAL REPORTING	City Clerk Betsy Driggers called Mayor Flagg, City Manager Mr. Bush and Finance Director Ruby Williams forward. Mr. John D. Rowe, Certified Public Accountant and Business Consultant with Davis, Monk & Company, auditors for the City was also present for the presentation. He read a letter from the company saying we at Davis, Monk & Company would like to congratulate the City of Palatka which was addressed to the Honorable Mayor & Members of the City Commission, City Manager, Finance Director & Staff for receiving this Certificate of Achievement for Excellence in Financial Reporting for the year ending September 30, 2004. This is a very prestigious award that a very small percentage of governmental units ever attain. The award is granted by the Government Finance Officers Association of the United States to governmental units and public employee retirement systems whose comprehensive annual financial reports achieve the highest standards in governmental accounting and financial reporting. This is the thirteenth consecutive year that the City has received this impressive award. We have been associated with the City as their auditors for many years and in that period of time the City has earned unqualified opinions as to the fairness and accuracy of the City's financial statements. The Certificate of Achievement is an indication to earn unqualified opinions in order to be recognized as among the elite few who aspire to "the highest standards in governmental accounting and financial reporting". We congratulate you on this high achievement. The City is to be commended for it's many years of dedication to excellence in financial reporting.
6:34:27 PM		The City Clerk said it is not often we get to honor our Mayor, especially twice in one night. She said these are the people who are at the top and are always passing out the kudos to everyone else, so it is nice when we get to stand here and give kudos to them.
6:35:31 PM		City Clerk read a news release from the Government Finance Officers Association issued from Chicago, which she felt says it all. The Certificate of Achievement for Excellence in Financial Reporting has been awarded to the City of Palatka by the Government Finance Officers Association of the United States and Canada for its comprehensive annual financial report. The Certificate of Achievement is the highest form of recognition in the area of governmental accounting and financial reporting and its attainment represents a significant accomplishment by a government and its management. An Award of Financial Reporting Achievement has been awarded to the individuals, department or agency designated by the government as primarily responsible for preparing the award-winning CAFR. This has been presented to: Allen R. Bush, City Manager, The Honorable Karl N. Flagg, Mayor and Ruby M. Williams, Finance Director. This CAFR has been judged by an impartial panel to meet the high standards of the program including demonstrating a constructive "spirit of full disclosure" to clearly communicate its financial story and motivate potential users and user groups to read the CAFR. City Clerk said she believes it is on the web site. The GFOA is a nonprofit professional association serving approximately 16,000 government finance professionals with offices in Chicago, IL and Washington, D.C. City Clerk asked everyone to join her in giving a hand to the people who keep our finances straight. City Clerk read and presented the certificates.
6:38:49 PM	BUILDING BETTER READERS PROGRAM	Mayor Flagg called Debbie Decubellis, principal of Jenkins Middle School forward. Ms. Decubellis said on behalf of the school district and Title I Director, Bob Pugh they wanted to let everyone know of the Families Building Better Readers Conference on November 5, 2005. She said it would be for students and parents and a very neat experience for anyone who attends. They are going to look at ways to make reading fun and also how parents can help their children in the area of reading. She said if anyone is interested in coming it is at St. James Methodist Church, 400 Reid St., Palatka.
6:40:15 PM	GIRL SCOUTS IN GOVERNMENT	Mayor Flagg called the Girl Scouts forward who participated in the Girl Scouts in Government. Mayor Flagg said the City Commission is extremely proud of the young ladies who have represented them tonight. He said they represent them daily through their activities, character and the choices they make and they are very proud of all the youth in this community who make life choices. They have a lot of options and they have made the right one. Mayor Flagg presented Good Citizenship Awards to; Emily Piscitello, GS Mayor, Sara Austin, GS Vice Mayor, Kayleigh Sekel, GS City Commissioner, Cynthia Murff, GS City Commissioner, Paige Piscitello, GS City Commissioner.
6:43:27 PM	STUDENT OF THE MONTH	October, 2005 - Commissioner Sanders joined Mayor Flagg in recognizing the following students for their academic excellence, leadership, citizenship and attendance at their respective schools: Ashleigh Williamson Beasley Middle School Michael Klick Browning Pearce Elementary School Thirus Jones Children's Reading Center Douglas Potts E. H. Miller School Kayla Phiel James A. Long Elementary School Jordan Bedenbaugh Jenkins Middle School Kayla Jenkins Kelley Smith Elementary School Amaiya Norris Mellon Elementary School Chrishandria Davis Moseley Elementary School Abraham Jones Palatka High School Megan Harris Palatka High School (Sept. Honoree) Katherine Humbert Peniel Baptist Academy Robert McGollie Q. I. Roberts Middle School Kayla Wylie River Breeze Elementary
6:48:50 PM	Recess	Mayor Flagg called a 10-minute recess.
7:00:49 PM	Reconvene City Commission	Mayor Flagg reconvened the 10/27/05 Regular City Commission Meeting and returned to the Orders of the Day.
7:01:21 PM	PUBLIC COMMENTS	There were none.
7:01:35 PM	CONSENT AGENDA Motion	a. Accept Robert Clark's resignation from Tree Committee eff. 10/27/05 b. Appoint Sherri Lowe to Tree Committee eff. 10/27/05 - (Single applicant) Commissioner Sanders moved to pass all items on the Consent Agenda as presented. Commissioner Norwood seconded the motion, which passed unopposed.
7:02:15 PM	UPDATE ON STATUS OF PALATKA MULTI-USE TRAIL FEASIBILITY STUDY	Mr. Jordan Green, P.E. with the Planning & Environmental Management Office was present to give an update on the status of the Palatka Multi-Use Trail Feasibility Study. He passed out a brief presentation covering project overview, alternatives studied and recommended alternative. He said the guidelines had changed a little bit with the construction of the bridge underpass, which is an enhancement project. He said one project where they were able to capture State wide money is an alternate trail project from St. Augustine to Lake City. He said for the past year they have been doing a feasibility to locate a route that goes through Palatka. He said they would do a presentation on December 13th at the Price Martin Center. They will be having a public hearing to go over the alternatives they have evaluated and the criteria and than have a second public hearing. They will be doing a mail out to property owners within 300 feet of the corridor. He went through the hand out explaining each of the slides. Mr. Green explained what was recommended for the bridge section of the trail. He said questions would be addressed in more detail at the public hearing. He said they wanted to stay on publicly owned right of way.
7:12:04 PM		Commissioner Brown asked Mr. Green which side of the road they were on over by the water management district, north or south and how would we cross the highway to get across to the water management district.
7:12:53 PM		Mr. Green said they will have to have a crossing there over across 17 that turns and goes up to Jacksonville. He said they would probably have some kind of pedestrian crossing and this would be addressed in the final design. He said they are not talking about putting up an elevated structure over the road at this time because of cost but may reevaluate that.
7:15:04 PM		Mayor Flagg thanked Mr. Green for the update and encouraged input from all our citizens, not just in the area where the trail is being studied.
7:15:33 PM		Christy Sanford, 313 Dodge St., asked if the trail was going to be going by Fred Green Park.
7:15:53 PM		Mr. Green said he was not sure because he was not familiar with the Parks and sites of interest in Palatka. Mr. Bush said the recommended alternative appears to follow Main St. on the sidewalk so it would go just south of the park. Mayor Flagg said to make note of the date, December 13, to attend the meeting.
7:16:37 PM	UDATE ON PALATKA HOUSING AUTHORITY INITATIVES	Mr. John Nelson, Executive Director was present. He explained that the PHA is a property management entity. He talked about resident services, which the PHA is not funded to do. The beg and borrow from other programs to do things for the residents that help make their lives better. He said for the seniors they have planned trips, weekly bingo, and blood pressure check and flu vaccination. Under the family programs they have child support workshop, national HIV testing workshop, book give-away program, job training/interview skills, first annual community clean up, SJRCC adult continuing education recruitment, plant a tree and blood drive. Under youth programs they had a book giveaway, Y.M.C.A. Warner Football Sponsorship, FCAT tutor/preparation and fire safety poster contest. He said these are just a few of the things they do to enrich the lives of their residents. He said in addition to residential programs they have Capital Improvement Programs. These are programs to help fix up the units and make them more livable. In the past 16 months they have installed air conditioning, installed fencing at the Northside Community, purchased playground equipment for James A. Long and Northside Communities, repave parking area and assign parking to each apartment, initiate curb placement program, removal of debris and weeds, appliance replacement program, roof cleaning program and siding repair program. He presented architectural drawings of the area and what it may look like when complete. Mr. Nelson said they have only done a couple of things administratively. He said they have improved Public Housing Management Assessment System scores from 74 in 2004 to 84 in 2005. He said this is a report card that HUD gives them for how they manage the public housing communities. He said anything between a 62 and 89 is a standard operating entity anything above a 90 is a high performer. He said another improvement is to reduce audit findings. They went from 11 in 2004 to 1 in 2005. They improved financial accounting system scores from 19 in 2004 to 24 in 2005. They have improved the delivery of maintenance services and delivery of Police Services. He said they have improved lease compliances.
7:32:51 PM		Mayor Flagg said Mr. Nelson had been extremely thorough in presenting the residential services, capital improvement program and administrative improvements. Mayor Flagg said anyone who has been in and around the community could see and feel the positive change that has accrued.
7:34:23 PM		Commissioner Brown said it is wonderful to see how nice it is looking.
7:34:59 PM		Commissioner Norwood said he echoes what everyone has said. He said it is nice to have a positive impact on the community.
7:35:46 PM		Commissioner Sanders commended Mr. Nelson on the magnificent job he has done in the short amount of time he has been here. He said he see the residents who live in the area taking pride in making it look better.
7:36:46 PM		Ann Keys, 1801 Napoleon St., asked if playground area would be lighted at night.
7:37:34 PM		Mr. Nelson said no because in their opinion that children between the ages 2 and 12, when it get dark they should not be out there playing. He said when dark comes they are hoping the parents will usher the kids in the house as opposed to leaving them outside to play.
7:37:45 PM		Ms. Keys asked if there would be any fencing around the play area.
7:38:01 PM		Mr. Nelson said there would be and the gates will be locked at night and opened in the morning.
7:39:05 PM		Ms. Keys asked if there is any equipment for kids with disabilities in the playground.
7:39:56 PM		Mr. Nelson said they have not taken that into consideration but there is equipment there that they receive assistant getting on. He said the ground the equipment is set in is made out of a combination rubber composite so if they fall the chances of getting hurt is close to nil.
7:40:10 PM		Ms. Keys asked about recycling appliances. Mr. Nelson said after they go through all the communities they will have an auction and get rid of the excess equipment.
7:40:31 PM		Commissioner Norwood said we need to thank the residents for their contributions to the community.
7:41:39 PM		Mr. Nelson said the residents are a key component to the success of your programs. Mayor Flagg again echoed the appreciation for Mr. Nelson’s leadership and leadership team and the appreciation of the vision of the Housing Authority Commissioners working with him.
7:42:04 PM	RECURRING DOWNTOWN ORDINANCE VIOLATIONS	Mr. Braddy, 614 River St., said it was heart breaking to come before the Commissioners with his subject matter after hearing so many positive things this evening so far into the agenda. He said it is not Christmas time or Halloween yet but he brought in a bag of garbage as a sales aid. He offered his introduction antidote while visiting a local food establishment recently. He observed two gentlemen arguing vehemently as to how the name of our fair City of Palatka is pronounced. After much discussion one of them summoned an employee of the establishment and spoke to her as followed; young lady my associate and I cannot resolve the question as to how you pronounce the name of this City. Can you say very slowly where we are? She paused for a moment and reflected and said, Bur Ger King. Not to be trite and to move past levelity he thinks there are 3 important lessons to learn from what he just recounted. One is that you must state the question of any issue very clearly. Two, the person you address must hear and understand the question. Thirdly, that question must be answered with a specific response. He said the bag he placed on the floor was not placed in disrespect to this Commission, Police Department or any other agency. It simply represents 1/3 of what he picked up off his property, Saturday, one week ago early in the morning after whatever went on there that Friday night. He said in summary there were 8 empty fifths on the property, 23 beer bottles, 6 broken beer bottles, various food containers with leftover food, condoms, human feces, vomit and urine. He happened upon this after returning from reviewing property, which his wife was showing for an open house in real estate. As he came down St. Johns he stopped dead in the middle of the street. He said he has a tenant there who was expected to open his business to the public at 9:00 in the morning. So for the next hour and a half he was reclaiming what was deposited by whomever the earlier that evening. He said he has lived in 26 states in this great union and is 59 years of age. He has lived in what could be described as impact zones in military communities and areas similar to Palatka. He said quite candidly he had to move to Palatka to experience the theft, vandalism and general lawlessness he has experienced here. He said everyone knows him and he has appeared before the Commission on numerous occasions but within one year he has had his personal automobile broken into twice on River St., 5 cases of vandalism on a residence on Gillis St., 1 case of vandalism Halsey St. off of St. Johns, and this kind of activity on St. Johns in the commercial block of 727 and 729. He asked the following question to the Commission. What would you do to address the issues of loitering, public intoxication, consumption of alcohol and drug in public places, defilement of public property, prostitution and vandalism on St. Johns Avenue in the down town business district. Secondly he asked how they were going to accomplish these objectives. He said these were somewhat rhetorical this evening. He said the reason is by example of his little antidote in the beginning. He knows they don't have an answer, because the test requires a specific response. He said he was here to recommended a task force be established, including the Palatka Police Dept., Putnam County Sheriffs Office, State Attorneys Office, City Commission and what ever citizens you might see fit to develop a specific response to these questions and provide this response to all available media within a short time frame, sixty days. He would like within the study he would recommend looking at allocation of current assets, what you have to work with, where those assets may be redirected to give us a presence in the downtown business community during the hours of vulnerability, between the hours of 9:00 p.m. and 4:00 a.m., especially on Friday and Saturday. Secondly, he would like a study to be made of all funding availability. This is to include the thing everyone is talking about such as impact fees and use of TIF funds, any and all sources to accommodate the Police Dept., like whatever manpower and resources they may need to address this issue. He said by Mayoral appointment he sits on the Downtown Redevelopment Committee. There are some significant decisions being made as to how they revitalize and develop the downtown again. He can assure everyone that no matter what they do; if the City does not arrest the problems of lawlessness on our main street we have a hard road to hoe. On October the 4th he finds a document sent to him by Officer May, who is present at the meeting tonight, authorizing the Police Dept., per Florida Statutes 810.09, to provide Palatka Police Dept. Officers, as representative to advertise any person, on his premises to leave the premises and failure to vacate the premises after being so instructed would result in arrest of trespass. He thinks every merchant down town needs to execute this document and authorize the police dept. to use their resources to clear the streets of unwanted activity without having to go through all kinds of loops. Secondly, one of the issues that he knows, and he is not totally familiar with the laws of the City, but in regards to prostitution, it is his understanding that the area down there is an area which provides for an open trespass warrant, for someone arrested for prostitution. These are the kind of issues we have on the books to work with. He as a citizen and business owner would like these questions answered. He would like to suggest the merchants and citizen be used anyway they can to accommodate some sort of restriction of this kind of activity in the downtown area and let a Task Force be form and respond to his request.
7:50:24 PM		Mayor Flagg thanked Mr. Braddy for his presentation and said the City Manager and Commission will do a follow up.
7:50:52 PM		Commissioner Norwood said he was appalled at that type of activity that goes on, if that is what goes on and he has no reason not to believe Mr. Braddy. He thought the Police Dept. was targeting that area for prostitution, loitering and that type of activity and was implementing, the once you get caught in that area and convicted and get caught again you get automatic jail time. He asked if this program was still going on.
7:51:30 PM		Police Chief Getchell said it is call the Prostitution Mapping Program. Chief Getchell said they cannot just trespass someone who has been previously arrested it has to be part of the probation provisions. It has to be issued down from a judge or the court. He also said it is only for a period of time, not an indefinite period of time. Once they have completed their probation than they can pretty much come and go as they please. The other issue is the fact that they have probation and parole within the area that the mapping is and some of the prostitutes that they have arrested actually live in the area of the mapping. If they do live in the area are on probation and parole they are pretty much in the gates of the Prostitution Mapping Program because the law cannot restrict them from going home.
7:52:18 PM		Commissioner Norwood said in lit of the allegations that have been made tonight, is the police dept. looking at doing anything different.
7:52:42 PM		Chief Getchell said he was glad the Commissioner asked and Mr. Braddy was absolutely correct, there are big problems in the city. He said the city has had one of the highest crime rates for almost 30 years, long before he heard of where Palatka was. He said the last 4 1/2 years since he has been here the crime rate has been down. It is not where he would like to see it and not where everyone else would like to see it. He said they have gone to downtown business people and have tried to set up a block watch. They have meet several times but still do not have a block watch. They have asked for volunteers from downtown, and they do not have any volunteers from downtown. He would be more than happy to sit down with anyone to come up with some solutions to this. He said there is a model out there that is used in real estate and also used appraisal of property that banks use when giving loans. Some of the things they look at is what is the stability or where is the neighborhood at this particular point in time, and every neighborhood, wither it is residential or business goes through this process here. It all goes through a state of birth and state of growth. As it grows you have a stable and mature neighborhood and it's prosperous and people are doing well, homes are kept up and businesses are kept up. Than someplace along the line there is a trigger and that neighborhood goes into a state of decline. So when you put in for a loan and someone comes out to appraise your property these are the things they look at. If the neighborhood is in the state of decline based on your businesses and residents around you than that property is not going to appraise out as high as it would if it were in a period of growth or stability. He said quite frankly, and he thinks everyone knows this; there are parts of our city that are in the state of decline and have been that for a long time. He said that is not of his making, it is an economic situation. Chief Getchell said when we have a neighborhood like our business district downtown and than when the mall came in and businesses started moving out, the next thing you know you have vacant buildings, that's the trigger. In residential neighborhood it could be, as we grew up as children we moved away and are parents were left there by themselves and than one of the parents die and they cannot keep the house up, this is a trigger. Than eventually what you see is the whole neighborhood will go into the state of decline, it is called the broken windows theory. The best example of this is the old Florida furniture building. He said when he came here 4 1/2 years ago that building was probably one of the stateliest looking old buildings that he had seen. It was very well kept and very well manicured but there was an economic situation that accrued, they went bankrupt. Within a very short period of time the building went into a complete state of disrepair. This is the broken windows theory. When it went into a state of disrepair, eventually what will happen is over a period of time people will start complaining about it, kids will go into it and vandalize it, break in and start stealing things, etc. We know through urban planning, law enforcement and the criminal justice system, that when you have a community in decline there are a lot of social issues that go along with that. The social issues that our community faces everyday are bigger than the police dept. He has encouraged and said since the day he got here everybody, everybody getting involved in this. He has said since day one that he could not do this by himself. He realizes that this is the political season and there are all kinds of people saying things about the police dept. All he has to say is some of these people have never ever, not once talked to him about what they have done or what they are doing. He said for instance, Get Tough On Crime, he will provide you with statistics that more people were arrested in 2005 than before he came here. He said they are doing the best they can with the resources they have. He realizes the City gave them 4 new positions for January of 2006 but he has the same amount of police officers today that they did 18 years ago. This is not of his making, he did not do this. When you have a community in decline, things usually get worse. When you have an adult entertainment that pops up you'll get condoms and broken beer bottles. What it is going to take is people like Mr. Braddy and people that are going to buy property and refurbish them. This is the last stage of the cycle that they look at in real estate when they appraise, it is called rebirth. It is called renewal. In large cities it is called urban renewal. For people who were born before 1960, we know what that is in bigger cities. He said it is starting to happen and he realizes that we want everything to change over night. He said this city did not get into the state it has got overnight and it is not going to take overnight to make it go away. We have some terrible, terrible social issues here, some social and economic situations that we as a community need to address. He said the police dept. is doing prostitution operations three or four times a month. He said one of the things people don't understand is that they cannot violate peoples civil rights or the city is going to get sued, and not only are they going to get sued, if they actually purposely violate peoples civil rights they can go to jail. If they see a known prostitute walking down the street, waving, there is nothing illegal about that. The State Attorney's office said they couldn’t arrest them for waiting. They did one operation where they had undercover females that were waving and they found out they could not do this because it is called entrapment. If they arrest someone with their undercover prostitutes from waving the case gets thrown out because it's entrapment. We know the guy who is trying to pickup the prostitute because we have it on tape. There are a lot of legal thing they have to go through to make a case against the prostitutes. It is not as easy as someone calling saying they see a prostitute on this street and you need to do something about it. He said they will check it out but as far as making a physical arrest and having them confined to jail and going to court and put on the prosecution mapping system is not that easy. He said once the prostitutes have been arrested they get street smart to what the police dept. tactics are, so they always have to change their tactics. One of the things they ask the undercover person to do is show their penis. They know the undercover person cannot do that. The reason they ask this question is because they know they cannot do that. Chief Getchell said it is not as easy as just walking up to someone and say I know you are a prostitute and we are going to put you in jail. He said they have asked some people from downtown to be undercover with them, because they can use them for undercover. He invited anyone who wants to, to go out on an operation with them and see how difficult it is to get these people and arrest them without violating their civil rights. He said whither we like it or not they have the same rights we do and they cannot violate them. He said they have arrested a lot of prostitutes. When he arrived in Palatka there were a lot of prostitutes all over the place, the Southside historic district, north side historic district, they were downtown and all over the place. He said you don't see them all over the place anymore. You see them in concentrated areas. He said he knows why they are there, because there is a demand for it. It is a supply and demand business. As long as you have the demand you are going to have a supply for it. These prostitutes are doing their tricks for less than five dollars. Most of the prostitutes are crack addicts. They use crack cocaine and they are hooked. They really do not want to prostitute but have to supply their habit. They need help. He has asked the churches in this community and the community to step up to the plate. He said the churches need to be out with them to help save the souls of these girl and guys. He said putting them in jail is not going to help them because as soon as they are out they go back into the environment they came from and what do they do, they prostitute. He said going back to the revitalization of downtown; you have some people who want to make a difference in downtown and some people who are just sitting on their properties not doing anything. He said when our downtown begins to look beautiful all these things will go away. He will never forget what a person said, "when you drive over the St. Johns River and look at Palatka and how beautiful is looks from the top of the bridge and than he gets into the city and it looks like a bomb went off". He said this is pretty graphic and he never noticed this until this person said that, because it is. He said he believes in Palatka. He arrives in Palatka at 7:00 in the morning and goes home about 9:00 at night, trying to solve all of the issues this community has and it is beyond him. He said there are very few people who will help them. He said he has people coming to him say they are trying to make Palatka look nice. People will ask him to come and take the individual who is standing out on the street with the boom box making our city look bad. He said he couldn’t because they have not violated any laws. He said this is another issue of our social economic situation. He said we have been an extremely benevolent community. He said this is what he likes about us and is one of the things that attracted him to be the City Police Chief. He said there are a lot of people who are not as fortunate as you are he. Putting them in jail is not the solution. He is willing to listen to what some of the solutions can be, but it is going to take everybody to solve some of these problems. He said he does not see as many problems in the Southside historic district as he did when he first got here because the community is revitalizing, because it is in the state of rebirth, the same thing with the north side. When he first arrived here you could pick out a house for about 5000 dollars. You can't touch a fixer-upper now for under 150,000 dollars. This is because it is in the state of rebirth. There are things happening that are so exciting. It is the same thing for downtown. He takes his hat off to Mr. Braddy. He is glad Mr. Braddy made the investment and glad he wants to make a difference because he needs his help. We need more people like him that are willing to say, enough is a enough and we want something done. Chief Getchell said there is a mechanism that is not in place that they brought forward quite some time ago. It is call the nuisance abatement ordinance. Under the State Statutes it allows municipalities and counties to create a nuisance abatement board. When there are nuisances in our community people like Mr. Braddy can come forward and say enough is enough, I want something done. Under the current statute, the way it reads, the only thing we can use it for is places of prostitution, places where drug deals have taken place, etc. Later in the statute it gives communities like ours the ability to create a nuisance abatement ordinance, we take it a step further. In that ordinance we create a nuisance form. He hopes everyone stick around because the Police Dept. has a video to show. They know where the nuisances are coming from and where the problems are and who is creating them. In the nuisance abatement ordinance, if we had this, not only the police dept. could bring to the Board a complaint of a nuisance, Mr. Braddy could bring a complaint, Code Enforcement could bring a complaint, it goes further than what the State Statutes allows. Right now it is with Mr. Holmes, City Attorney and he may want to comment on it and what it would do and what it won't do for us. Chief Getchell said they had partnership meetings when he first came to Palatka but had to discontinue this because it was costing the City so much money in overtime, because he had more cops there than citizens. He said they would be sitting there on a Monday night and there would be no citizens there. He said he would start them back up. He said instead of citizens attending their meetings they have been attending citizens meetings to find out what they can do to help them. He said they are a partner with the citizens wither they realize it or not. One of the things he is upset with was when the downtown committee was form nobody, nobody invited the Police Dept. to be part of it. He said they are the ones who get hit on the chin when things don't go right. He said they are a major player in this, extremely major player. He said the Police Dept. is a business in the downtown. He said they have almost a 3 million dollar budget and 80% of it is salary, so they have on of the most lucrative businesses downtown and they were not even a part of the downtown committee. He said at one point in time, between himself, his daughter and his wife they were spending about 500 dollars a month downtown. Between the police officers that work at the Palatka Police Dept. he doesn't know how many thousands of dollars they spend downtown, so they are a major player in this. But the nuisance abatement ordinance is with the City Attorney and he is doing research to make it where it will stand the test of court. It is a model the have gotten from other cities that have worked with it. He said this would be a legal mechanism the city could use in situations like this, but right now we don't have. This would be a tool that we currently don't have. He has brought tools with him since he has been here and this is one tool he would like to see.
8:09:10 PM		Annie Johnston, owner of Dumas said she had heard this meeting was some kind of a secret. People were sending her notes and whispering saying the meeting was all about her. The business on the scene today said that when they find trash in front of their door it is coming from Dumas. She said she has garbage cans inside, trashcans outside. She has bathrooms so nobody has to poop by their doors, because they can use the restrooms. She said she is not the only business downtown. She said they find liquor bottles and she does not sell liquor. She said they were finding Heineken bottles; she does not sell Heineken. She said today is the first day she had got a Heineken vendor. Someone told her about a tray of food someone had found; she has not sold food there in over three months. She said when they find trash they come directly to her. She said when she is open and the police come there; there are people parked across the street that are drinking. She sees them drinking on the outside. She goes by and picks up cups and bottles. They tell her she is responsible for people across the street. She said she couldn’t make them leave off someone else’s property. She tries to keep them from in front of her building. She said most of the time she is there she spends more time outside than in because of what they do. They come and park and drink liquor or whatever they do. At first she thought she was reasonable and had to ask them to leave but they don't listen to her and when the police officers come by they don't make them leave how do you think she can make them leave. She is getting fed up with it. Every time it's trashed they come directly to her, the trash is not from her. She said when she is getting ready to close, her and her cousin are the last two people to leave there around 2 or 2:30, going block to block because they are going around picking up trash. Through the week she has gone down there and she sees trash in front of the doors and she is not even open those days, but she picks it up. She said she has seen the City Workers blowing the street and all the leaves are blown in front of the doors and they do not clean it out and she does not cry about that. Sometimes it comes inside and she just gets it up. She does not know where Mr. Braddy got the trash from but there could not be that much trash in front of his door. She walks the block and she does not feel she should walk that block every time she is open down there. She does it because she knows people are sitting across the street, they are not even coming into her club. The just sit over there and drink. She will go walking and pick up stuff and pick up cups but she is not going to continue to do it because they are not satisfied with that, they think she is suppose to do that all the time or they just blame her because she has a club over there. She does not think it is fare.
8:13:06 PM		Angela Marta, owner of Angela’s of Palatka on the corner of 8th and St. Johns. She said she has been in Palatka for approximately two years and recently purchased the building on the corner of 8th and St. Johns, which she has done a lot of work to. Her biggest complaint with the downtown area is the prostitution. She said when she bought the building in June or the end of July there was a whole lot more prostitution going on downtown, it was there, and it was in your face. Now it is not as bad and has to say to the police dept. you are doing a great job. Whatever you are doing it is working so please continue. She said she has been out there several times when the prostitutes are picking up the john on the corner of 8th and St. Johns, right behind the vacuum cleaner place. She said there is a lot of activity that goes on behind that building and there should be a little more focus around there. She said the women are a problem because they are doing the prostitution but also the johns are a big part of the problem because if they were not out there than the women would not be out there, like the chief said, demand. Secondly she thinks the vagrancy is bad downtown. The people hanging around in front of the buildings and sleeping on the side of the sidewalk. She knows this happens in every town and small county, but she guesses you see it here more because Palatka is extremely small. She is on St. Johns and sees a lot of it, they are lying on the side of the streets, they beg and they are filthy. It is hard when you are trying to open a business down town and try to cater to certain people, they will not come down there because of the kind of people they see. While she was working on her building, it got very dusty inside and she was still trying to order some merchandise from her vendors. Sometimes it was so noisy from the banging and construction work she would go out to the front of the building. She said on several occasions she has been hollered at, hooted at and proposition for prostitution. She finds this very bad for a woman to not be able to stand or walk on St. Johns without being looked at as a prostitute. She said all this is extremely new to her. What she is trying to figure out is why is all that prostitution down on St. Johns?
8:16:06 PM		Sam Deputy, 917 Carr St. said he enjoyed what the Police Chief said tonight. He thinks the abatement program should be on a fast track. He thinks this is a tool that we desperately need. He said he has been involved with the thing since he has returned to Palatka and discovered the oldest prostitute in this state on his corner. He said she was so busy that they couldn't catch her. He wanted to take her to social security, but it has been a real trip to be down there. He said the police have worked wonders. He said he has been on their backs, verbally and everywhere else. He said it does make a difference and Angela has said that. The difference is that, three or four weeks ago eight of them came out from a downtown meeting on the Azalea Festival and they were going to eat down in the 800 block. When they got there, three prostitutes were standing in front of the restaurant. One shaking her behind at every passing car. The females in their group said, "no way will we go there", so that restaurant lost eight vendors. Beyond that you can image what is going through the town from those females about that establishment because of what was in front of it. He said prostitution hurts us economically a lot deeper than we see because you will not take your family there if you think you are going to have to pass through that. It got so bad at one point that one prostitute would tie her dog to the stop sign when she got a job than come back and get her dog. He said we see that, we live within that and work within that. He wants to say publicly, if each of us, and he agrees with the chief on this, he is not giving his corner up to a prostitute. He just is not going to do it. He is not giving up his bench to a prostitute that is just not going to happen. Each time he go after a prostitutes and chase them away, he offers the get them to the Covenant House in Daytona Beach and start over. Now if they don't want to hear that, he wants them off his corner. He will make sure he stands out there, and he has stood out there for 45 minutes, making sure they no job to the point they had to move on. He is committed to that and he thinks if we could get the others downtown to commit to such dedication, or whatever you want to call it, to move this problem. He said the situation does not need to be moved from one side of town to the other. It needs to be moved outside of our city as much as we possibly can. The ones we have currently in our city are very hard-core and very dedicated to whatever they are doing. He said the other thing he has done is gone to some of the owners of the apartments where they are residing and have put pressure on the owners and two of them have evicted the prostitutes that live there. We as citizens need to do that more because some of these people do not know, especially if they are elderly, that this is what's going on in the places of their residents. He thinks this is an involvement issue. He also wants to stand on the fact that whatever the police force needs to battle this; we need to make sure that they have it. He said he believes the citizens would vote for higher taxes if that were what is needed to be safe and secure in our homes and our businesses.
8:20:38 PM		Mayor Flagg said it is time for every entity, public and private, all of our citizens, wither they are private citizens or entrepreneur to team together and take ownership and pride in our community. It is not a them or us situation. He said he would not sit back and make anybody think for half a second that the police dept. has a problem. The police dept. does not have a problem. The citizens of Palatka must rise up to the challenge. You are part of the problem or part of the solution. Together we can partner and make downtown as well as all around town a model community. It is going to take work. He said as mentioned it did not start over night and every individual and every neighborhood must participate in the process. He said the solution is simple. The apathy must go.
8:21:31 PM		Christy Sanford, 312 Dodge St. said she lives in the south historic district. She said she has not heard of duress code violations. She said she had noticed that Cafe Dumas was dumping water directly in the middle of the sidewalk and it just seemed really wrong to her. She said she went to the code enforcement and asked if that was a violation and the answer was no. She said when the public tries to do something to improve the city and they don't have the support of code enforcement than where are we. She said she agrees with the Police Chief in that a lot of different components have to come together and code enforcement has to be involved with the dilapidation of some of these buildings that are just being allowed to go down hill. She said she does not want to present this as a righteous thing or that she is perfect but does feel that code enforcement has to come into this in a more present way.
8:22:52 PM		Mayor Flagg said that is a perception and perception is reality. When we say we don't have the support that is a very strong statement. We may need to be able to say that we are not getting the effect that we desire wither you are talking police dept., code enforcement or wither your talking city hall. He said sometimes we have a desire effect and outcome that we anticipate or feel that should happen and as was stated earlier, there are rights, personal rights, citizens rights constitutional rights, etc., etc. that you can't just go around. He said he goes around the he drives, he rides the city, he walks the city and does various things and there are a whole laundry list of things that he flat out does not like. He said this is his home and he is here for the duration. Mayor Flagg said we have heard a lot of comments tonight; a lot of positive things with negative situations and it is about solutions. He said the Commission sits here and all of us in this community see a lot of things that you are seeing and a lot of things that are being presented. He said tonight we don't have the answer but again based on what has been said there are a lot of things on the table, wither it is the task force that needs to be pulled together, some additional ordinances or level of enforcement. The problem that we encounter with enforcement is, when we turn the heat up the police dept. is the first to be criticized that they are harassing citizens, yet at the same time they are getting directives to them by this Commission and again the authorities in administration etc., that we want to clean up certain areas, that we want to do these various things. His premise is this. We need to decide that we want a classic community and we have got to make the sacrifice to make it that. He said at this time there have been discussions on these items and he is asking the City Manager to be involved in the process with the Police Chief, Code Enforcement and citizens. He wants us to make a difference. He thinks there are a lot of directives the Chief has given us tonight and it is about citizens saying enough is enough. The police dept. says enough is enough but they cannot battle this alone, this Commission cannot battle this alone, it is going to have to take all of us together. Mayor Flagg said there would be follow up and this issue will be kept open for the next level and we will be looking for some guidance from our administration.
8:25:36 PM		Commissioner Norwood said the one thing that we need to stick a pin in and the Chief said it, is all of us need to work with the police dept. and make ourselves available.
8:26:15 PM		Commissioner Brown said without the demand they do not need anyone to supply and she has been telling everyone this for a long time. She said we look at the women being prostitutes but we need to look at the men who are paying for it. If we state putting something together to expose them or fine them or do whatever we need to do to them like we do to the women than the demand downtown will go away.
8:26:57 PM		Commissioner Norwood said we need to make sure everyone knows that they can be used as undercover agents to assist the police dept. in that area as well. Commissioner Brown said she heard the Chief talk about the change of appearance. She said she is always saying we have the glass half full and she knows we haven't gotten there yet but from 7th St. to David Church's place back to probably Badcock has stated a revitalization itself. She said those owners of those properties have started to upgrade and make that area look better. She said there are some who have not got there yet but when we all start planting seeds some of those flowers will start to bloom more. We need to be very positive in our thinking. She said if she sees something she does not like she is going to tell them. We are going to have to start talking and being our brother’s keeper.
8:30:14 PM		Mayor Flagg told of an incident in his parking lot. He said we have to nip it in the bud and that it is everyone’s problem it is a community issue and is going to take a community to solve it.
8:31:07 PM		Commissioner Sanders said approximately three years ago he made the suggestion to the commission that johns should be arrested and pictures put into the paper. He said this is happening in other places and this is a starting point. He said this is a community involvement issue.
8:32:05 PM		Chief Getchell said they had gotten with the newspaper when they had their prostitution focus group and the paper will not post the pictures. What they would have to do is take out a display ad, which is very expensive. Chief Getchell said what they have talked about as an alternative is putting up billboards down town but he has a problem with that and not what we want to post in our community. He said the focus group did come up with a lot of good ideas that they worked on and they should probably start back up again. He said another thing they could do is when they see people that are potential johns, they take their tag numbers down or citizens can take their tag numbers down and we can actually send letters to the registered owner of the vehicle saying your vehicle was seen in the area of known prostitutes etc., etc. He said it is a very generalized letter and there are communities in the state of Florida that already do this. He said there are a couple of reasons they do this, one is because of who typically gets the mail at home.
8:35:00 PM		Randy Braddy said this is righteous indignation. That's what every citizen, be it this commission, or property owner or anybody walking up and down the street needs to feel. He does not think his feelings could have been any stronger had he been a women who had been raped, because after you put in that kind of energy you put into what he is inventing in for his family, for his son, for his wife, that's the feeling he has when he finds that kind of treatment to his property. He said he can get substantially indignant and can show some righteous actions and that's what he pledges as a citizen, to the chief, all he is asking for is a cohesive effort just as everyone said, it takes every single person that has any kind of concern about where we are going in this town to get involved. He said don't wait on someone else to do it. He said if you are walking down the street and you think you see something that resembles any of this kind of activity we are discussing, you could be involved.
8:36:16 PM		City Manager said he has heard concerns and rumors about practices of the police dept. in dealing with bars and nightclubs. He said he knows the police dept. is working under the directive from the City Commission, which was discussed, at more than one meeting. He asked the Police Chief to advise him and the Commission of any issues that have been brought to his attention or to the attention of his staff concerning treatment of bars and nightclubs.
8:37:18 PM	Recess	Chief Getchell said he has a presentation for the Commission. Mayor Flagg call for a three minute recess so the Police Dept. could set up video presentation.
8:47:50 PM	Reconvene City Commission	Mayor Flagg reconvened the 10/27/05 Regular City Commission Meeting and returned to the Orders of the Day. Police Chief Gary Getchell said most of those present would understand what he was about to say. He comes before everyone tonight with a belt of truth, the breastplate of righteousness and shield of faith. He said the things he was going to present tonight are the facts, truth and he knows some people will be uncomfortable with it. Unfortunately what he learned in his 28 years of doing police work, sometimes you make people happy sometimes you don't. There are some facts that he believes at this point that the community should know and the Commission should know. He said Mr. Bush has asked him to talk about some of the concerns that the bar owners have had regarding their enforcement, the city’s ordinance and state alcohol laws, etc. He said going back to the issue of nuisance down town or any other place they have, wither it be condoms, broken beer bottles or somebody leaves a glass of liquor, people urinating on businesses, sidewalks, plants or you come out to your car and they have urinated on your car is that the police dept. has tried to take a very aggressive position on this and back in November 2004 the City was consideration a change to the alcohol ordinance. He said a letter was sent to the City Commissioners dated November 11, 2004 stating his position, which he read and has been placed on file. He does not think people realize where they are coming from as a police dept. He said as a police dept. they are not policy makers for the city government, they are not policy makers per say as it relates to what ordinances are in place. They feel strongly enough they felt they needed to go on record as to what their position was on this. He wanted to make perfectly clear and go on record that something he learned a long time ago as a Christian, bars are going to exist wither Christians are there or not. So he has no position as it relates to Christian as to wither the bars are there or not. He said they have their own issues to deal with and they will stand in judgment someday. He said they are asked to do the impossible and when they enforce the laws there is always somebody that's mad at them but that's okay. He said he has been in this job long enough and your not going to make everybody happy. Chief Getchell said they get conflicting communication coming in when the City Commission creates an ordinance and wants them to enforce the ordinances and laws of this City and than from time to time they are call in on the carpet and someone is chewing him out for enforcing it too much. He said recently there is a City Commissioner who has asked for his resignation because they are picking on bars. He said they would like to show us how they are picking on bar and what they are trying to do. He said basically what they are doing is enforcing ordinances and enforcing statutes, trying to clean up downtown and trying to clean up these areas, but time to time he comes under a lot of political pressure also. He said what has brought this to this level is a Commissioner has asked for his resignation and the reason he has asked for his resignation is because he was caught on video and he was drinking. The Chief said he would let the video say the rest and than talk about what happen that night. As the video was being viewed Commissioner Brown asked what the women in the video was looking when she went behind the bar and was pulling liquor bottles off the shelf. Chief Getchell said she checks alcohol for content and also check to make sure the got it from a distributor. He said that women was with the State Beverage Dept. Commissioner Brown asked if the Chief could explain some things in the video. He said they do undercover stings all the time. He said at this particular time in the video it was two fold. They involved the State Beverage Dept., Fire Marshall, Palatka Police Dept. and City of Palatka Code Enforcement Officer. He said they go around to bars and on this particular night the first aspect of this is an undercover person that was under age and tries to buy alcohol. He said the other aspect is they go in and do a typical inspection. Florida Statutes authorizes law enforcement to go into bars. Chief Getchell read that portion of the Statute. He said this is a standard operation and they do them all the time. He said they keep a log and typically what they do is go to all the alcohol outlets about once a month and check for things like underage drinking. He explained that by law these establishments have to purchase their alcohol from a distributor. In the absence of a distributor the only alterative is they can buy it through a co-op. He explained that on each beer can, beer bottle and liquor bottle has serial numbers on them, so they can check the serial numbers that will tie back to where they got it from. So if they didn't get it from a distributor they probably with to a package store or grocery store and bought it, which is completely illegal when you are license to sell or serve alcohol. He said they do this operation because they get complaints. He said some complaints come from folks who were in this room, some from Commission and they get telephone calls etc., which know they do these operations. He read Detective Ruis incident report from 10/14/05 (on file) at Spurs Saloon, which is on the video. He said the City is gracious enough to supply them with video equipment, which is a tool that they use. He said videos don't lie. Chief Getchell said on the video you see people toasting the camera and bar tenders who were still serving alcohol. He said the way they do these inspections is they do not go in with their guns drawn and billy clubs out. They are non-evasive and people can still conduct their business. They do not ask them to shut the music down and turn up the lights. He said he did not see anyone leaving in that video. The only time they would tell someone to shut the music off and turn the lights up is when they get a call of disturbance, because when the music stops usually people stop fighting plus they want the lights up to see what they are doing. Chief Getchell continued to read the incident report of 10/14/05. Chief Getchell said since he was called he also did an incident report (on file) and read it to the Commission. Chief Getchell said he has concerns when the police dept. gets beat up when they don't do there jobs and than when they do try to do their job they get threatened and called in asking them to resign. He said he is not going to resign because he has not done anything wrong and the members of the Palatka Police Dept. hasn't done anything wrong. He said they have done exactly what the City Commission has asked them to do. He said even before he was here, at a Commission meeting on August 17, 2000, one years before he arrived, Commissioner Azula brought up the issue of some establishments have called themselves restaurants and are actually bars and they continue to sell alcohol after 2:00 a.m. Commissioner Azula would like to stop this practice. Police Chief Dolinski, who was chief at the time said these establishments are in compliance with the Code. Chief Getchell said the minutes go on and basically Commissioner Azula wants the Ordinance to be changed. The Commission directed than City Attorney, Mr. Hedstrom and Mr. Bush to work on an Ordinance. Chief Getchell also read from Commission minutes of September 14, 2000, (on file), where Mr. Bush, Chief Dolinski and Mr. Hedstrom brought forward a draft ordinance. At that point he was directed to have a special call meeting where they would invite citizens in to discuss it and on September 28, 2000 (on file) they talked about it. Chief Getchell said one of the things he agreed with that Commissioner Azula said is that there needs to be consistency. Chief Getchell said they do not do selective law enforcement. Chief Getchell also read Commissioner Azula's statements from minutes of January 10, 2002 (on file) asking that the alcohol ord. be changed and the Commissioner commends the Chief Getchell and the Police Dept. and that the bar owners speak highly of the Chief and Police Dept. for the tremendous change in the level of cooperation between the entities. Chief Getchell said the bottom line is this, he has been directed by this City Commission to enforce the alcohol ordinance, as late as this year, specifically, June 23, 2005, (minutes on file) where Commissioner Azula said it has come to his attention that there are still some bars that are still open until 3 - 4 a.m. At least one bar has been cited for staying open late. They need some enforcement on this issue. Chief Getchell said they are enforcing it. He said they are enforcing the litter laws and prostitution laws. Chief Getchell also showed more video of the different things they have done. He said as citizens come in and complain they try to rise to the occasion and deal with these issues that they face as a community. He wants people to see some of the things that they have to see and deal with on day-to-day bases. He said it is not that they are complaining because they are not but it will paint a picture. They will accept the responsibility for the enforcement side of it but will not except the responsibility for causing it. As the video played Chief Getchell said this was one of the bars that say they are picking on them and an officer pulls over somebody for DUI in front of the bar. In the video the bar owner actually comes out and impedes the investigation. Also in the video the bar owner comes out with a video camera before the police officer has a chance to walk up to the car to see if he had a gun. In another video the Chief pointed out people in front of Duma's drinking alcohol out on the street, they were sited. Chief Getchell had Sergeant Newcomb come forward and explain what was going on is some of the videos. He said every night that his shift does these type of operations they check every bar. He said it is only a certain number of bars that is violating the ordinance. Sgt. Newcomb said the time on the video of 1:07 a.m. is correct and it was taken on Sunday and on Sunday nights the bars are required to be closed at midnight. Someone asked what the outcome was of that night on the video. Sgt. Newcomb said the bar owner was issued a notice to appear and there was he believed between 6 or 8 people that were inside the bar issued a notice to appear. Chief Getchell said as you can see on the video at 2:00 in the morning it's a different world out there. He said there are mornings you go down St. Johns Ave. and can't go down St. Johns Ave. because traffic has it backed up. He said the question he would ask the City Commission at this point, and he has heard the arguments for enforcement that the city is not doing enough, do you want the Police Dept. to enforce the laws because he is getting mixed singles.
9:47:43 PM		Commissioner Sanders said, that is what the Police Chief was hired to do, was to enforce the law.
9:48:17 PM		Commissioner Norwood said yes he want them to enforce the laws.
9:48:30 PM		Commissioner Brown said she did not what to comment right now. She said she needed to think about it a little bit but you have to make sure that if you enforce the law that the law is the same for everybody. It isn’t what you do; it's the way you do it.
9:49:47 PM		Chief Getchell said they could only do so many operations at a time. They have had the Beverage Dept. in several different times and over a period of time have hit all the bars. He said when they do it they try to do it the exact same way that they did it someplace else. They are being accused of picking on people because of this or that. Chief Getchell said they brought the beverage dept. in to teach his people how to do it and when to do it. One of the things they taught them and told them is be consistent and keep a bar check log. He said it was not the police dept. that asked for the alcohol ordinance. He said it was asked for before he became police chief. He said someplace along the line he got asked to do things that this Commission asked him to do. He said when they do enforce the law they are accused of picking, when they don't enforce the law they are accused of not doing their job. He said he is just asking what exactly is it that the Commission wants from him as the Police Chief and what exactly does the Commission want from the Police Dept. He said the last task he was given in June was that the Commissioners said that there are people out there that are violating the law and they want the law enforced and that is exactly what they try to do. He said that is why they are there tonight because they are being accused of picking on people and making people look bad.
9:52:18 PM		Ms. Johnson, the owner of Dumas said she knows that is not true. She said she had one note to appear from the video just shown. She said the next time she was arrested. She said they were open 15 minutes past the ordinance cleaning up when they came in. She said she does not feel she is being treated fairly because they come into her establishment pretty regularly. She said she did not have a copy of the Ordinance.
9:53:30 PM		Commissioner Norwood said we have spent countless hours putting an ordinance in place to govern the citizens of Palatka. One of the things that he expects is compliance. He said it is not his wish to see anybody go to jail or anybody given a citation. It is his wish that everybody understands what the ordinance is. Under no circumstances does he want to see anyone treated differently. He expects the ordinance that the Commission put in place be enforced. He said not only this particular ordinance but also all ordinances. As a Commissioner he does not feel it is his place to circumvent what the Commission as a whole has put in place. He said we have to listen to the citizens when problems accrue and drive in diligence to address the problem and he thinks they have done that. They ask the Chief to enforce ordinances that they have put in place. One of the things that he believes and that he is expected from the Commission, as well as the Dept. Heads, is to support the directives the Commission has given. One of the things that has to actually happen is that not only does the Police Dept. need to get involved the citizens need to get involved. He said those were our citizens that were standing on the corner in those videos, violating the ordinances like the open container ordinance and what not. He understands that if you try to enforce it with that many people you create a riot. He thinks we have to start addressing these issues before they get to that level. Under no circumstances does he want the Chief to misunderstand this Commissioner when he says if the ordinance is being violated, do you do diligence.
9:55:48 PM		Commissioner Sanders said it was his understanding that the lady did not get a copy of the ordinance. He said the ordinance was published in the Palatka Daily News. He said there was some elaboration done on it. He said they discussed it at the Commission meeting and citizens that were involved in it. The ordinance was passed unanimously. He said if we have an ordinance we are going to enforce it.
9:56:42 PM		Mayor Flagg said the Palatka Municipal Code is our guidelines. He said we are asking a man for dignity and respect and equal enforcement to make sure the quality of life in our city is not hindered in any way, shape, form or fashion. He said what ever this Commission, not the Mayor, but this Commission has said than those are directives. Mayor Flagg said no exemption or no acceptations you follow the rules. Mayor Flagg said there was a lot of information shared and he is sure there will be needs for follow up.
9:57:27 PM	REQUEST FOR NOISE ORDINANCE VARRANCE	John Lyon manager and applicant of Steamboat Willies was present to ask for a noise variance for a Halloween Party on October 29, 2005. He said every year he has a Halloween Party and costume contest kind of a thing and this year he has decided to hire a band. He said weather permitting he would like to have them outside. In the past they have one complaint and call from 4 or 5 blocks behind the building that states he can hear it but he does not know how he could have. The complement calls into the police dept. and the police dept. comes down and asks them to turn it down and of course he does so. They come by again and Officer Newcomb asked him if he had a permit, so that is why he is here at this meeting to obtain a permit so there won't be any harassment for them as far as giving them a call 4 and 5 times to have them come to his place because they have other things they can be doing besides coming down and have them turn the music down. He said he is here to get the noise variance from 10:00 p.m. to 2:00 a.m. He said he gave the Commission a list of signatures from residents that live behind him on Oak St. and on 11th St.
10:00:24 PM		Mayor Flagg asked the Police Dept. if there were any previous calls for service at this location when there has been live music and entertainment outside.
10:01:09 PM		Commissioner Brown wanted to know how big the band was they were going to have.
10:01:29 PM		Mr. Lyon said they have 5 people in the band and has played them outside many times. Mr. Lyon said when the police are called it is always from the same person each time. Mr. Lyon said this person is 5 blocks back and he has gone and stood by this person’s property and stood on the sidewalk and you could not hear the music. He said this person has been doing the same thing for the past 15 years. He said this person calls the bar first and tells them they need to shut their doors because he is call the police. He said it is the same guy all the time. Mr. Lyon said this guy harasses the police and call 4 or 5 times and the police have to respond because that is what their job is. When they get there they do whatever it is the noise ordinance says to do. Mr. Lyon thinks the noise ordinance is very vague as to how to test it and so forth.
10:02:16 PM		Commissioner Brown said if this noise ordinance variance is granted there should be a level that the music is kept. She said you have to mindful of other people. She asked if we had to get permission to have live music out side. Chief Getchell said he did not, he just need the noise ordinance approved.
10:05:47 PM		Mr. Bush said he is familiar with the size of the patio behind this particular bar. He said it is not that large and under the noise ordinance isn't the sound of the music such that you could hear across that 30 or 40 feet of patio, how restrictive is that.
10:06:32 PM		Chief Getchell said it was going to restrict some of it and when they discussed it before, when they were revising the noise ordinance, just mere talking back and forth if he is not mistaken, it was around 60 decibels. He said if we were talking on the street behind this location we would almost be on the threshold in violation of the city ordinance. He said the threshold changes depending on the time of day. He said what they have done is to try and do a search on the noise complaints that they have had in that area. He said this was difficult to do because they do not maintain their computer dispatch information; the Sheriff Office does, so it was impossible to get that data for this meeting. What they did do was do a search on where they do their police reports where they actually took action. The difference would be, say, someone would calls and complain about noise and the police go and check it out and they don't see anything or they don't hear anything, He said they do not generate a police report on that but it would show on the compute rated dispatch information that they received a call from so and so, we responded to a certain address or location and checked it out and couldn't hear anything. If they do go and they do have to take action they contact the people than do a police report on it. Chief Getchell said the particular area they are talking about they went and looked at Oak St., Laural St. and some of the side streets in that area. They found one voice complaint, which was back in March of 2000. Than he did a search from January first 2000 thru 10/25/2005 just to see how many noise complaints the city police dept. handled. He was quite surprised because it really wasn't that much. He said it was 543. Chief Getchell said he and Commissioner Brown had talked numerous times about the location she was talking about. He said they had complaints there about two or three weeks ago that they had to handle. He said it is the residents directly behind these or across the street on Oak that usually do the complaining but they just can't find any reports on them. He knows they complain because he gets the phone calls and Vice Mayor Brown gets the phone calls and the Commission gets the phone calls but they do not have any police reports. This does not mean they did not respond it just means they did not find anything to report or there was not action taken.
10:09:47 PM		Mayor Flagg said the question is does a variance grant unlimited noise opportunities to individual who receives the variance. He asked what this does to the enforcement when there is a complaint. Does the person say, well, we have a variance, does that neutralize any enforcement? Chief Getchell said it is his understanding that the variance reality part of it is you are pretty much for the most part suspending the noise ordinance and there is nothing to enforce and he referred to council for this.
10:10:25 PM		City Attorney Don Holmes read the Noise Ordinance referring to Sec. 30-109 in regards to issuance of a special permit. He said the answer to the Mayor's question in a nut shell is, yes, if you grant a permit you are in essence granting an exemption from the noise levels that are the maximum noise levels that are prescribed in the code. He said you can grant a permit with conditions, the conditions primarily being 1, a set of conditions being set by the City Manager for noise continuing devices or conditions or 2, your hours of operation or the hours of which the permit would apply with the understanding that you can't grant a permit for more than eight hours in any one twenty-four hour period.
10:12:35 PM		Commissioner Norwood wanted to know the percentage of residents that are in that area.
10:13:18 PM		Chief Getchell said he did not have those figures but anything south of that area is residential. He said since he has been here he cannot recall of any time that the City has granted any kind of noise variance past midnight. He used the festival as an example.
10:13:42 PM		Mayor Flagg asked Mr. Lyon if he had any other options he could give them to consider other than what they had before them. He asked if there were any midnight deadlines that would cause his event to be successful.
10:15:31 PM		Mr. Lyon said the South Historic District had a meeting and he gave the Commission copies where there was only one person in that meeting that was opposed to what he was doing. He said that was the same gentleman that keeps calling. Mr. Lyon said he had hired the band from 10 to 2 and that was it. He said he usually stop these guys at 1:45 and they stop playing at that time and they start shutting down at that point. He said he is not looking to increase the noise level that he already has outside or continues to have for the past year he has had play outside. He said there have only been these few incidences where the police had to come and ask them to turn it down a little bit. He said he just wanted to make it easier on the police because they have to keep responding every time this gentleman keeps calling. He said Sgt. Newcomb is the one who mentioned the noise variance to him. He was going to the next level in getting the permit to where the police are not harassed. He said he went back and talked to all the people he got the signatures from and they all said they had no problem with the music playing till 2 a.m.
10:16:25 PM		City Manager said as of right now he has one complaint and if the City grants a variance and completely does away with it, it's liable to end up in the hole.
10:17:34 PM		Mayor Flagg said according to the Southside Historical District minutes Officer Tipton said that readings are within the law. Officer Tipton had taken copies of noise ordinance to the owner and all readings have been within the law. The Mayor said if all reading is within the law there is no need for a variance. He said just granting the variance is not going to stop us from getting the calls or stop the police dept. from getting the calls. It was said that the way the noise ordinance reads there is no way possible way to have live entertainment out back and within the hospitality district without you being outside of the law. Mr. Holmes said this is probably about readings taken at the point of the complain tents address because the noise ordinance speaks to the property line as being the point that which measurement is to occur. He agrees in that he does not see anyway that you could have amplified sound from a band and not exceed the noise ordinance at the property line.
10:19:01 PM		Mayor Flagg said the 2 a.m. seems to be setting the precedence. If we have been going to midnight for all other events that we granted the variance for he does not know what type of precedence we would be setting. He asked Mr. Lyon how often he has been having these outside events. Mr. Lyon said usually it is weather permitting first of all. He said he has not had to have them in awhile because he is trying to do things inside. He would like to have them outside if the weather is nice because it brings people to the downtown area, live entertainment has. The most he has done it outside is twice a month is the most he has actually done it outside except of course during the Blue Crab Festival and what not and than he is covered under the variance of the festival for that. Commissioner Brown asked if he is doing it twice a month is the band going to be bigger this time. Mr. Lyon said it was not that it was the same band that nothing had changed. They were not going to turn their music up anymore. He just did not want the police dept. to keep getting harassed by the same guy, that they have to keep responding four and five times to a call that you can't even hear at the gentleman’s house. Mayor Flagg said they have to respond. Mr. Lyon said but if he has the permit than they can let him know they have the special events permit and they don't have to waste their time coming down. Allegra Kitchens, 1027 S. 12th St. said in times past she has had problems with the Azalea Festival and Blue Crab and the way the City Commission saw it, and she is a mile away, the City Commission granted the variance but they put the specification on it that if the City Police could hear it at the City dock or at Laural St. which is four blocks away than it was too loud. The gentleman in question lives further away than Laural St., she knows who it is and where it is, so maybe if the Commission granted the variance with the restriction that if they can hear it from past Laural St. than they would have to turn the music down. This might be a way he could get his variance because if you can hear it at Laural St. it is going to be too loud for the patrons anyway and deafen them but that would solve the problem with the gentleman that is hearing it and she understands that he is hearing it upstairs where it is vibrating in his upstairs part of his house not downstairs so you would have to check it in his home. She said have the police check at Laural St. or just on the other side of his house and maybe half of a block and than if you can't hear it there your okay since the residents on Oak St. said it is okay with them. Mayor Flagg said they would have to be a certain decimal reading at Oak St. rather than making it subjective to a specific officer. Ms. Kitchens said the reason she suggested this is because she understands the boom box part, the base part, does not pick up on the decimal meter so you could have boom shaking your house and rattling the dishes and the decimal meter won't pick it up, it's on the other sounds as she understands, which is why she requested during the festivals that the police use their ears and if they could hear the boom at a certain distance away then it's too loud. This is just an idea that might give this gentleman his variance and not disturb the other gentleman that calls in because the other gentleman will call in wither he has the variance or not, she promises and everyone knows who she is talking about and you know he will.
10:21:09 PM		Mayor Flagg said each time the officers have come by what was Mr. Lyon response to the officers. Mr. Lyon said if they ask them to turn it down he turns it down. He said there is no level he can have it at to where the people can enjoy the music out back without satisfying that gentleman. He said he called in during New Years and the police officers responded and said this is not loud at all and Mr. Lyon said if they want to go and stand outside the gentleman house and if they can hear it come back and let him know and he would turn it down.
10:22:05 PM		City Attorney said the noise ordinance is problematic because as the Chief indicated 60 decimals is not a lot of noise. Because of a recent court case he can tell you his voice and the tone he speaking right now measured from where Mr. Lyon is standing is a about 55 to 60 decimal. He realizes that his voice is a little louder than some but still that's what it is. The point is Mr. Lyons is making is he has been violating the noise ordinance the whole time. Mr. Holmes said if we are going to get right down to it and talk in plain facts, he has been violating the noise ordinance the whole time but the police dept. has been showing some difference and trying to resolve the problem without issues citations or tickets. Now the question is how you resolve the fact that you got one person who is objecting but the objection is probably well taken in term of the violation of the ordinance. Wither the police can hear it four blocks away isn't the question on wither there is a violation of the ordinance. May be a question of degree, may be a question of what action they take or how serious they respond but the fact of life is that if you measure the noise at the property line you and I can both bet our paychecks that it's going to be more than 60 decimals, which is in violation of the ordinance. He said his point is Mr. Lyon needs a permit if he is going to deduct his activity and how you style the permit should be up to the Commission. Otherwise if he doesn't get a permit than we are back at the point where we are telling the police not to enforce an ordinance. Mr. Holmes said you can dance around the subject but that's where it is because the way the ordinance is written, 60 decibels right at the property line, there isn't a electric guitar with an amplifier, he does not think, around, especially when you put five of them together and drums, that is not going to trip 60 decibels measured from 30 to 40 feet away. Mayor Flagg said in times past again we look at setting precedence and setting a rule, similar event that is going to be a recurring need there. He does not know exactly what the Commission can style. For this one time request he asked what suggestions the Police Chief might have for them as it would relate to what this Commission decides if a variance would be granted. Chief Getchell said that was a tough question. He said what he has heard throughout tonight is that every citizen counts and he knows who they were talking about in terms of the complaints and if you have one person who complaints, at least from his prospective in law enforcement, you have to meet that persons needs. As far as the on going violation of the noise ordinance this is the first he has heard of it. He was not aware of the fact that there is an ongoing problem down there. Seems as if there was the gentleman that we are talking about and he knows him well and he knows that he would call him if the issues were that bad or the issues weren't resolved. Like he had said he did not find any reports in the records that indicated they did any enforcement or action at this place and he is not saying that they didn't go there. At this point what he is hearing is Officer Tipton went down there. Chief Getchell said Officer Tipton works days. Mr. Lyon said Officer Tipton was at the South Historic District meeting. Chief Getchell said he is not sure at this point without talking to the officers that have been involved in this as to exactly what took place, who did what and all that. In term as enforcement if the Commission grants this and they go till 2 a.m. they are going to get complaints, that's pretty much a given.
10:27:04 PM		Commissioner Brown said wither we give him a variance or not people are going to complain. She also said if we do it for him, and it's not that she doesn't want to do it, but when she has people calling her at her house on a Sunday or weekend night, she does not have many days off and on top of the noise she hears, people want them to have some kind of a response to what's going on. She said having a band outside when there is nothing going big on in this town is a rough deal because there is a pocket of noise there that people hear and after 10 o'clock, from 10 to 12, some people go to sleep early, some people work shift. She asked if there was no way that Mr. Lyon could keep the noise at a certain level.
10:28:04 PM		Mr. Lyon said the crowd he is now drawing is more concern with quality and they still want to be able to converse with each other what they are there. He said 15 years ago it was a totally different ball game, people wanted to hear it as loud as could possible hear it. He is not looking at trying to blow anybody out or disrupt people. He said he has 100 people who want to come down and hear loud music compared to one guy who want to keep complaining about it.
10:31:11 PM		City Attorney said you have a noise ordinance that says he is right. He said the music isn't the issue the issue is wither it goes off his boundaries, wither it goes off his property. He said the question is not if he can have music at his place of business, the question is can he have it outside and broadcast the music to the point it exceeds the dismal level of the property line. Mr. Holmes asked Mr. Lyon to what extent does he have the right to disturb somebody else for him to make a profit. He said this is where the whole philosophical thing comes in. He said he does not know what the answer is either put you can't say it's just one guy when you have an ordinance and you have to enforce it, than with the discussion we have had tonight it is hard for the Commission to say they don't care about the ordinance when it is just one guy complaining about it, when it involves noise, but if it involves alcohol or something else, then we have to be strict and enforce it. He said the problem he has is there is a precedence issue that you are dealing with, but as he said the offset, noise ordinances are problematic because you can't hear sound two or three blocks away and it won't even bump a decimal meter at times. How disturbing that is depends on the person that is hearing it. He said it may not be an easy issue because it is actually as the Vice Mayor said, it is going to come back to you if you grant a noise variance for Peabody's or Steamboat Willies to have a live band till 2 a.m. then it is going to be hard for the Vice Mayor to turn who ever it is she is talking about, Pizza Willie's as she put it, cause than they will what to do a noise variance to go till 2 a.m. on their property. He is not arguing against Mr. Lyon request he is just asking the Commission to consider that what we are talking about more than one establishment because if you grant one you are going to have to grant others.
10:32:36 PM		Commissioner Brown said she hears it from Mr. Lyon angle and from Mr. Holmes angle. She said it is hard for her to sit there and vote for Mr. Lyon to make noise till 2 in the morning and her neighbors are call her and telling her that same kind of noise in the evening and the night is really disturbing to them, and she has more than one person calling her.
10:33:45 PM		Mr. Lyon said from the amount of business he sees where live entertainment takes place he thinks he has grown to that. He said the other thing is if we could use common sense, for lack of a better term, but it depend on how many people you actually see going into that business on wither you can decide wither or not they have actually grown to that. Whenever he has live entertainment outside and he has 10 to 150 people show up at his place, they have grown to that. He said the other thing is, and he doesn't want to use the term common sense, but he wishes he could think of a better term, he would like to see if somebody is calling to complain about his music, go to complaint house and see if you can hear it and see how disturbing it really is first and than come and tell him. He said if you went to the gentleman’s house on one occasion, he could hear it there, like Ms. Kitchens said maybe up high it does because noise does travel but the police officers that responded at that time came and said it was not loud. He said he asked them to go to the gentleman’s house and if there was an issue to come back and let him know. They never came back.
10:34:23 PM		Mayor Flagg said if we are talking live entertainment only we might have a different issue but we are talking about 2 a.m. with the live entertainment and the precedence that will be set and that is where the concern is. We are talking about something that is going to be transpiring in 48 hours.
10:34:54 PM		Mr. Lyon asked after discussion with his mother about going to a different time such as going from 9 to 1 or 8 to 12 but they do not get a lot of people around 8 because a lot of people are just getting home from work and change and get ready to come out at that point, so what if they were looking at 9 to 1. He knows this is not a bargaining situation but that was something suggested.
10:35:49 PM		Jack Trendler, 513 Emmet St. said there are two items to address. First being the subjective part is listening from a distance, he is pretty sure he knows who the repeated complaint is and he lives three doors beyond those person’s residents from the establishment. He said he has dogs and his dogs typically don't care what time it is when they say in the middle of the night it's time to go. It is not uncommon that anywhere between midnight to two o'clock he will go outside with the dogs. If he did not know personally that they had music there he would not know because he as of yet has heard the music anytime from midnight to two o'clock or four o'clock, whenever he happens to be out there. He questions wither the music can really be heard at that distance. Going back some 25 years ago he was involved in some research and study for DOT highway noise and that was all about decimal levels and readings at different distances. A number of factors were often taken into consideration that is in the noise, that could be a piece of machinery near by, an air conditioner can exasperate the amount of noise at a certain distance where a reading is taken, so if you are looking at a 65 or 60 DB level at 100 feet, if there is an air conditioner you hear it run, that can exceed that limit even though the subject noise does not exceed the limit. It is the combination of the two. The other thing that you run into is the distance that you measure it. Distance in measurement can very from establishment to establishment. Some establishments are at an advantage and others at a disadvantage. Unfortunately it is as Mr. Holmes says its noise abatement ordinances are very difficult and very problematic. He said from a distance standpoint as far as the noise being heard he has yet to hear the noise.
10:38:34 PM		Commander Fells from the Palatka Police Dept. said he did ask Mrs. Saccareccia if it would be feasible to close down at 12 because that kind of sounded like the mood of the Commission at the time and he wanted to clarify that.
10:39:13 PM		Mr. Holmes said he was trying to find a compromise and asked what if Mr. Lyon made a provision that granted the acceptation of the variance with the understanding if there is a complaint made and an officer responds and the noise is auditable from the point of the complaints house than the condition that the noise would either have to stop or be turned down. He realizes there are a lot of circumstances, conditions and asterisks in that but if you are looking for a solution like in Ms. Brown's case, if we're looking for precedence, if we were talking about another establishment that applied for another exemption and they got it under the same conditions and a complaint was made and the officer responded to the complaints house and heard the band than they would either ask the band to stop, turn the noise level down or whatever and they wouldn't have permission to continue to exceed or disturb. He said disturbance is the key. He said disturbance is what all noise ordinances are intended to try to avoid, disturbing others. He knows that is not a simple straight forward sort of solution but it is going to involve manpower and the police dept. and you are going to have to send somebody out and all that stuff but other than that he does not know what you do without setting a precedence if you grant an exception into the wee hours of the morning to exceed the noise level that won't open the door for everybody else in the city limits who wants to do have an outside band to follow the same suit.
10:41:38 PM		Mayor Flagg said we have recommendation to stay within the guidelines of whatever we do for the festival; noise ordinance is the recommendation he has, what is the recommendation of this Commission.
10:42:28 PM	Motion	Commissioner Sanders said if it is his understanding we are looking at the noise ordinance such as we have had for other events such as the Blue Crab Festival and that. Mayor Flagg said we are looking at the precedence of variances that have been granted up through this time. Commissioner Sanders moved to grant the variance from 8 p.m. to 12 midnight based upon the variance of special events.
10:43:02 PM		Motion failed due to lack of second.
10:43:14 PM		Commissioner Norwood vote we not grant the variance for the 29th to Steamboat Willie's on the bases that there is no time for notification to people for them to adjust and get ready for it. Second of all he does not think we want to set precedence to every time somebody want to have an outdoor event they want to come down and ask for an ordinance variance. He said what he keeps hearing that when an individual steps outside or they live rather close to the place of business they can't hear the music anyway so why would you need a variance, this is about one individual complaint, this variance is not going to stop it. Mr. Holmes said no because the ordinance is being violated. He said the ordinance could be violated and somebody four blocks away still might not hear it. He said if they make a phone call than even if they might not be hearing it at their house the ordinance is being violated. Mayor Flagg said even if we get zero complaints the variance is need for the event to take place.
10:47:28 PM		Commissioner Brown said than we need to add some other language to the noise ordinance for people who come in for variances. Mr. Holmes said he does not know any other language you would want to add. He said right now the ordinance allows the Commission to grant the variance and allows the Commission to prescribe reasonable conditions. He said the ordinance is a little bit his opinion ambiguous in that Sec. 30-109 says that application for permit is made in writing to the city manager, for presentation to the city commission, the city commission may grant permission as follows, so it seems to imply that the city commission is the one that grants the permission but in the first paragraph it says the city manager may prescribe a reasonable conditions or requirements he deems necessary. His interpretation of that is that the city manager makes the recommendation to the city commission and the city commission either grants permission or a nods it and the city manager may prescribes or recommend whatever restriction or limitations he wants but than it goes further to say under a separate sub paragraph that you the city commission can grant the permit for the purpose of entertainment as long as the function is open to the public and as he said earlier the permit is not for more than eight hours. His interpretation is, no the city manager isn't in a position to grant the permit himself without concurrence of the city commission. He can make recommendation under sub paragraph one of the ordinance, under sub paragraph two he is out of the loop altogether and the commission just grants permission if they like for a period not to exceed eight hours in a 24 hour time as long as the function is open to the public, even if there is a fee charge for admission. Commissioner Brown said she hates doing this and she knows we cannot set precedence now until we do some more looking at what we need to do. She said it is bad and you might not hear it but if he would like to she will take his number and she will call him the next time they have something. Commissioner Brown moved to deny the request for Noise Ordinance Variance. Commissioner Norwood seconded the motion, which passed unopposed.
10:48:22 PM	BOARD APPOINTMENT INTERVIEWS	Commissioner Brown moved to appoint John Lyon to the Code Enforcement Board. Commissioner Norwood seconded the motion.
10:48:49 PM		Mr. Lyon asked if the Commission had any questions because he did not have any. Mr. Holmes asked Mr. Lyon how he felt about the noise ordinance. Commissioner Brown said to be careful what you pray for because sometimes you have to make those hard decisions too.
10:49:27 PM	Call on the Motion	Mayor Flagg said we have seen the application of Mr. Lyon and he has expressed his desire to apply for the Code Enforcement Board alternate. There being no further discussion the motion to approve Mr. Lyon appointment as Code Enforcement Board alternate was approved.
10:49:34 PM	ADMINISTRATIVE REPORTS	There were none
10:49:50 PM	COMMISSIONER COMMENTS	Commissioner Brown said the young lady that asked us permission to do the welcome bags did 50. She said she had brought in the bags for the Commission to see and also left two in the Main Street Office. She said the young lady collected from all the businesses.
10:50:25 PM		Commissioner Norwood said we have been talking about the way the Price Martin Center looks and it needs a major overhaul. He said we talk about having meetings there, the meeting tonight probably should have been held there because we violate the capacity ordinance for this particular room tonight but it is not in any shape right now to have a meeting in. He said he was to Lake Butler and they had refurbished their room and it just look immaculate. He thinks we are no different. We should have a community center and if the city commission is going to be using it from time to time we should have a community center that represents this city. The Price Martin Center, he is embarrassed to even go in there. We have been talking about the curtains in there for God knows for how long. The ceiling is about to fall down. The last time he was in there water was leaking in and we have not done anything that he knows of to change the conditions of that center. He thinks this needs to be in the forefront and more than just going in and repairing the roof and the ceiling. It needs to more than just going in and replacing curtains. He thinks we need to go in and revamp that whole inside of that building, so it will look like something we are proud of as citizens.
10:52:14 PM		Mayor Flagg said Mr. Norton and Mr. Bush should be able to have a plan for us. Mr. Bush asked Mr. Norton to look at the insufficiency at Price Martin Center. Mayor Flagg said if Commissioner Norwood wouldn't mind he could walk through with him that way they could get a report for that facility.
10:53:18 PM		Commissioner Norwood said he thinks he talked about this before but was going to bring it up again. He said we still have a temporary building and zoning official that is heading up before the chief building and zoning inspector. He reads the paper that the chief building official first of all is temporary and he is commenting that we are going to close streets and that type of thing and Commissioner Norwood does not have a problem with that and he thinks it should come from Mr. Mengel because he is part time, but if he wants to contact him and that type of thing he has to contact him certain hours and what not, but also he believes that in the direction the city is going in we are going to need somebody that has some structural engineering type of credentials and somebody that is able to follow contractors back ground as well for a chief building inspector.
10:54:05 PM		Adam Mengel said he agrees being ready for growth. He said some things you may know about or will remember, the folks out at DRI are not the first ones that Putnam County’s seen in a DRI out in the Bardin direction and it just happen. Some of these things that we are talking about may not happen. He said we do have a part time building official right now; we have no need at this time for anything more. He said it is not unreasonable to expect that someone would have office hours and that is pretty much what we have at this point is a building official that comes in the mornings, is available during those times. Someone that can't work with that schedule, we can have special arrangements made and we have been flexible with that in the past and it has been working real well. He said the building official and him had just talked about this issue this morning. He said if anything their most immediate need would be a second inspector. As far as the need to have someone’s structural engineering credentials or something of that nature, it is not required by Florida Statutes. He said you probably don't want that either with your building official although any engineer or most any architect could be a building official. There are some considerations there that are unique. He said probably what is more important is what's called a threshold inspector that is needed for projects that may require a structural engineer and that is when the builder or the developer will come in. This is not something we provide, this is something they provide to structure that meet those requirements.
10:57:30 PM		Mayor Flagg said when Mr. Mengel says chief building official and that person is not there until you call them for a specific assignment than who are the people who work under the building official, therefore time, when the person is quote, chief, the chief title makes it seem that that person is in charge. Mayor Flagg asked Mr. Mengel to educate the commission on this. Mr. Mengel said he is in charge and there is not difference there. He said he is available and has been available for us and holding consultations. Mayor Flagg questioned if the building inspector qualified as a chief building official. Mr. Bush and Mr. Mengel said not at this time. Mr. Mengel said they don't expect for the inspector to be at this point either. They have had inquiries into this position with the salary increase that has been offered. Mr. Mengel said we have very few building officials; very few people who want to take this roll. He said it is a point where they can negotiate their price. He said we are not the only ones in the state with a part time building official. Mayor Flagg said up until the chief building official retires, is Mr. Mengel saying he has nothing to do all day. Mr. Mengel said no, he can touch plan review and that is what he does now. He also assists with inspections and mainly brings our inspector up to speed with his knowledge. His soul duty at this point is plan reviews but he does have training responsibility that he has taken on his own.
10:58:58 PM		Commissioner Norwood said we don't have threshold inspectors the developer has threshold inspectors come in, they work for the developer they don't work for the city. When they do an inspection guess where it is landing at, it's landing toward the developer. We are in the business of making sure that we protect individuals, which is why we have building codes that we go by. To insure that you may not like paying the permit fees, but we are suppose to be insuring the safety of the structures that we are building. He does not know how the city can do that when you have a chief building inspector, first of all it's part time, second of all you when you hire a threshold inspector you don't do the hiring the developer does the hiring. He said if you work for him and want something a certain way you are working for me, guess what you’re going to do.
10:59:38 PM		Mr. Bush said the point that Mr. Mengel made is right now the arrangement that he had there is not a problem, that doesn't mean, and of course we put the money over and the difficulty was bringing. Commissioner Norwood said he did not want to wait until there was a problem, which was his point. Mr. Bush said take fifty thousand dollars out of contingency and lets go hire the best money can buy.
11:00:08 PM		Mayor Flagg and Commissioner Norwood said they thought they had budgeted that. Mr. Bush said we did and we went shopping for one. Mr. Mengel said they had one applicant at this point for a chief building official. Mayor Flagg said it sound regressive. Mr. Bush said he thinks it has been working very well up to this point. We are going to need a chief building official because the part time person’s house is going to sell and he is going to go. We have put the money over, we advertised for it and had one app. Mayor Flagg said we thought we needed a full time chief building official all this time and now suddenly it is convent not for us to need one, it doesn't sound right. Mr. Bush said that is not the case. He said the money is there; the advertisement has been put out. Right now we are doing just fine. We may be saving the taxpayers a few dollars but we'll get a chief building official even if you have to raise the ante. Mayor Flagg said lets not wait to advertise it in the Florida League of Cities and the places we need to advertise that, is what the Commissioner is saying. If we have one person there and we are operating by default and something happen and the part-time contractor chief building official is gone you still have to contract somebody in there, is that right. Mr. Mengel said luckily we have an interlocal agreement with the County.
11:01:11 PM		Commissioner Norwood said he is not slitting the building department but this is one of the area he feels if we are going to provide our citizens with service that we say we are providing them then it becomes our responsibility to make sure that we put the people in place to provide those services. Mr. Bush said we have not gone one day that we have not provided that service. He asked Commissioner Norwood to come in and talk with him about this. He said the money is there and we advertised. Commissioner Norwood said we should be treating this as if we don't have a chief building inspector, we are thinking we got one and we are just waiting till whatever. Mayor Flagg asked for a follow-up
11:02:24 PM		Commissioner Brown said she would like the young lady to come to the next meeting to acknowledge what she had done.
11:02:37 PM	ADJOURN	At 11:02 p.m. upon a motion by Commissioner Brown.

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